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	<title>Comments on: Money Vs. Rewilding</title>
	<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/</link>
	<description>Hunter-Gatherer Wannabe With A Blog</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Urban Scout &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Week23: Homeless Romantics</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-7301</link>
		<dc:creator>Urban Scout &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Week23: Homeless Romantics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 05:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-7301</guid>
		<description>[...] I have a new slogan; &#8220;will hunt and gather for tribe.&#8221; Back in the day my sign said, &#8220;will stalk your enemies for cash.&#8221; Then I came up with, &#8220;will hunt and gather for food.&#8221; Than one day at the bookstore I flipped open Steve Watts Practicing Primitive book and saw a drawing he did of a caveman hold the same sign. Then I saw that green anarchist Kevin Tucker silk-screened t-shirts with the same slogan. Did he steal it from me? Did I steal it from Steve Watts? Did we all think of it independently? Probably. But then I started thinking about a title for my book (should I ever write one) and I came up with &#8220;will hunt and gather for tribe.&#8221; It makes more sense in terms of how hunter-gatherer cultures work. You don&#8217;t hunt and gather for food, you hunt and gather to keep your community alive. An artist does not make art in order to make money. They make money so they can make art. Hunting and gathering for food does not imply the deeper relationships with people and the land that we seek. This echoes an earlier blog (before I wrote them all in e-prime) titled Tribe is the Root of All Money. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I have a new slogan; &#8220;will hunt and gather for tribe.&#8221; Back in the day my sign said, &#8220;will stalk your enemies for cash.&#8221; Then I came up with, &#8220;will hunt and gather for food.&#8221; Than one day at the bookstore I flipped open Steve Watts Practicing Primitive book and saw a drawing he did of a caveman hold the same sign. Then I saw that green anarchist Kevin Tucker silk-screened t-shirts with the same slogan. Did he steal it from me? Did I steal it from Steve Watts? Did we all think of it independently? Probably. But then I started thinking about a title for my book (should I ever write one) and I came up with &#8220;will hunt and gather for tribe.&#8221; It makes more sense in terms of how hunter-gatherer cultures work. You don&#8217;t hunt and gather for food, you hunt and gather to keep your community alive. An artist does not make art in order to make money. They make money so they can make art. Hunting and gathering for food does not imply the deeper relationships with people and the land that we seek. This echoes an earlier blog (before I wrote them all in e-prime) titled Tribe is the Root of All Money. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Devin</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Devin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-78</guid>
		<description>Hey Frank Black --

I'm enthused about the idea of being a fugitive, and also I'm completely willing to "compromise" and be a part of "the system". The way I see it, there's only one "system" and that's the entire universe. I don't have a problem compromising with the universe, as there are always going to be constraints. The point for me is to learn where the limits are so I can be as flexible and adaptable as I can be within those limits -- and maybe push those limits a little bit further outward. I don't get discouraged at all at the idea of being in civilization, because that's where I am now and I'm really not all that unhappy -- although I am definitely unsatisfied and restless. I'm doing my best to "defy gravity" and stay as far away as I can from despair. For me this means not giving over my power to some distant, nameless, ominous "powers-that-be", but rather keeping my focus on the power-that's-me. This way I &lt;i&gt;am&lt;/i&gt; the goddamn powers-that-be.

Let us not focus on problems, but focus on possibilities instead. I see no insurmountable barriers in front of me. Certainly some things I am trying to do are going to be tricky, but I have to wonder -- if it was easy would I even be doing this at all? I think one of my predominant frustrations with "civilization" is that I appear to be required to be bored to death. Fuck that, let's have some fun and see what happens. It's way too late and things are way too bad for pessimism.

- Devin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Frank Black &#8211;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m enthused about the idea of being a fugitive, and also I&#8217;m completely willing to &#8220;compromise&#8221; and be a part of &#8220;the system&#8221;. The way I see it, there&#8217;s only one &#8220;system&#8221; and that&#8217;s the entire universe. I don&#8217;t have a problem compromising with the universe, as there are always going to be constraints. The point for me is to learn where the limits are so I can be as flexible and adaptable as I can be within those limits &#8212; and maybe push those limits a little bit further outward. I don&#8217;t get discouraged at all at the idea of being in civilization, because that&#8217;s where I am now and I&#8217;m really not all that unhappy &#8212; although I am definitely unsatisfied and restless. I&#8217;m doing my best to &#8220;defy gravity&#8221; and stay as far away as I can from despair. For me this means not giving over my power to some distant, nameless, ominous &#8220;powers-that-be&#8221;, but rather keeping my focus on the power-that&#8217;s-me. This way I <i>am</i> the goddamn powers-that-be.</p>
<p>Let us not focus on problems, but focus on possibilities instead. I see no insurmountable barriers in front of me. Certainly some things I am trying to do are going to be tricky, but I have to wonder &#8212; if it was easy would I even be doing this at all? I think one of my predominant frustrations with &#8220;civilization&#8221; is that I appear to be required to be bored to death. Fuck that, let&#8217;s have some fun and see what happens. It&#8217;s way too late and things are way too bad for pessimism.</p>
<p>- Devin</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Black</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-64</guid>
		<description>I sometimes see those whose wish to transcend or free themselves from civilization as animals in a cage.  We know we are captive and we know that things will be better when we are free.  Our trouble is that we can't get out of the cage.  Sure, maybe once in a while an animal will escape, but they are generally captured again or they get hit by a car in the parking lot.  Maybe once in a great while an animal escapes and is never heard from again (stories are told about this one).  But I don't think there are ever cases where the animal escapes and comes back later for his comrades.  

Unless someone opens the cage it will not happen.  I'm turning this over in my head a lot lately.  The rules are such that you are not allowed to drop out (http://thefrankblackblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/tune-in-turn-on.html).

So if you are a dolphin in a tank and want to live in the ocean, you are not going anywhere unless your owner says you can.  This is especially true if your tank is in Nebraska.  If you want a place to live, you need money for rent or rely on the kindness of others.  If the property is anywhere in civilization it means taxes are owed.  Even if you live in a tax-free spot (religious exemption, etc.) there needs to be upkeep.  That means you need to be in a place where resources are available and you are capable of using them to maintain your home.  Then the question arises, is this lifestyle just for a lucky few who can hide underneath the radar and out of sight of the powers that be?  Is this our lot in life, to be fugitives?  Unless things change on a fundamental level, that is what you will likely be: a fugitive or a guest of someone else who is actually in the system (which makes you in the system).  So far, all my thoughts point to a compromise arrangement.

It is discouraging.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts as you unwind this and pray you come up with ideas that can be used.  No matter how I look at it, the answers are not pretty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sometimes see those whose wish to transcend or free themselves from civilization as animals in a cage.  We know we are captive and we know that things will be better when we are free.  Our trouble is that we can&#8217;t get out of the cage.  Sure, maybe once in a while an animal will escape, but they are generally captured again or they get hit by a car in the parking lot.  Maybe once in a great while an animal escapes and is never heard from again (stories are told about this one).  But I don&#8217;t think there are ever cases where the animal escapes and comes back later for his comrades.  </p>
<p>Unless someone opens the cage it will not happen.  I&#8217;m turning this over in my head a lot lately.  The rules are such that you are not allowed to drop out (http://thefrankblackblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/tune-in-turn-on.html).</p>
<p>So if you are a dolphin in a tank and want to live in the ocean, you are not going anywhere unless your owner says you can.  This is especially true if your tank is in Nebraska.  If you want a place to live, you need money for rent or rely on the kindness of others.  If the property is anywhere in civilization it means taxes are owed.  Even if you live in a tax-free spot (religious exemption, etc.) there needs to be upkeep.  That means you need to be in a place where resources are available and you are capable of using them to maintain your home.  Then the question arises, is this lifestyle just for a lucky few who can hide underneath the radar and out of sight of the powers that be?  Is this our lot in life, to be fugitives?  Unless things change on a fundamental level, that is what you will likely be: a fugitive or a guest of someone else who is actually in the system (which makes you in the system).  So far, all my thoughts point to a compromise arrangement.</p>
<p>It is discouraging.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts as you unwind this and pray you come up with ideas that can be used.  No matter how I look at it, the answers are not pretty.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-56</guid>
		<description>I'm not gonna lie. 

I want a bucket brimming with C-notes. As much as I despise the soulless greed and  idiocy that keeps this empty transfer of so called power the focal point of our society, I think it's a good thing to have. Makes a lot of things more comfortable safe and easy - such as travel and medicinal care. Riches are no subsitute for doing what you love, a cushy bank account doesn't compare to kinship, but money may not disappear until the human race disappears. Until then - it has benefits.

One more thing, this ones directed at the Pennyscout. In some tribal communities prestiege is/was based on trivial things, such as how many pigs one owns or how many spouses one lives with. And they also sometimes ate each other. It's the indigenous state of mind that fascinates me - direct relationship with the land as opposed to living in opposition to the land. the rest is just details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not gonna lie. </p>
<p>I want a bucket brimming with C-notes. As much as I despise the soulless greed and  idiocy that keeps this empty transfer of so called power the focal point of our society, I think it&#8217;s a good thing to have. Makes a lot of things more comfortable safe and easy - such as travel and medicinal care. Riches are no subsitute for doing what you love, a cushy bank account doesn&#8217;t compare to kinship, but money may not disappear until the human race disappears. Until then - it has benefits.</p>
<p>One more thing, this ones directed at the Pennyscout. In some tribal communities prestiege is/was based on trivial things, such as how many pigs one owns or how many spouses one lives with. And they also sometimes ate each other. It&#8217;s the indigenous state of mind that fascinates me - direct relationship with the land as opposed to living in opposition to the land. the rest is just details.</p>
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		<title>By: asa</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>asa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-55</guid>
		<description>eloquently put, my friend.  they call it "currency" because it is supposed to be "current".  yeah, we'll see for how long.  count me in.  no pun intended.  okay okay, pun intended. oxo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eloquently put, my friend.  they call it &#8220;currency&#8221; because it is supposed to be &#8220;current&#8221;.  yeah, we&#8217;ll see for how long.  count me in.  no pun intended.  okay okay, pun intended. oxo</p>
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		<title>By: Devin</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>Devin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 06:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-53</guid>
		<description>"Money is a poor, unfulfilling replacement for real people."

Right on! And what &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; fucking pisses me off, more than anything to do with money, is that I don't have those real people in my life -- indeed that in this world where money is in everything, I struggle even to have a relationship with my parents and friends that isn't based on the model of a fucking economic transaction. If money were only a medium of exchange and not a symbol for how we think of the world that invades all of our relationships and thought-processes, I wouldn't have near the problem with it. But it isn't just a medium of exchange, it's way way more than that.

So for me talking about living without money is almost exactly what you're saying, I'm expressing that I'd rather have a tribe. And I'm also saying "goddammit dad I'm not a fucking investment". I don't want my relationships to have economic metaphors anymore. I'm tired of seeing the world as a zero-sum transaction.
----

I have enough savings to last about a year as well, maybe a little less or a little more depending on what I decide to do. [I'm interested in studying a specific form of martial art and unfortunately that costs money. Money buys us access to people. Ugh.]

I'm hoping to build a local gift noneconomy (network? I like that framing -- a gift network, not a gift economy.) Give support, get support, a tribe is a group of people each doing what makes them come alive, all that good stuff.

This is so cool. Too bad we're on different ends of the continent. But I suppose that could be seen as a gift as well. We need this everywhere.
- Devin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Money is a poor, unfulfilling replacement for real people.&#8221;</p>
<p>Right on! And what <i>really</i> fucking pisses me off, more than anything to do with money, is that I don&#8217;t have those real people in my life &#8212; indeed that in this world where money is in everything, I struggle even to have a relationship with my parents and friends that isn&#8217;t based on the model of a fucking economic transaction. If money were only a medium of exchange and not a symbol for how we think of the world that invades all of our relationships and thought-processes, I wouldn&#8217;t have near the problem with it. But it isn&#8217;t just a medium of exchange, it&#8217;s way way more than that.</p>
<p>So for me talking about living without money is almost exactly what you&#8217;re saying, I&#8217;m expressing that I&#8217;d rather have a tribe. And I&#8217;m also saying &#8220;goddammit dad I&#8217;m not a fucking investment&#8221;. I don&#8217;t want my relationships to have economic metaphors anymore. I&#8217;m tired of seeing the world as a zero-sum transaction.<br />
&#8212;-</p>
<p>I have enough savings to last about a year as well, maybe a little less or a little more depending on what I decide to do. [I&#8217;m interested in studying a specific form of martial art and unfortunately that costs money. Money buys us access to people. Ugh.]</p>
<p>I&#8217;m hoping to build a local gift noneconomy (network? I like that framing &#8212; a gift network, not a gift economy.) Give support, get support, a tribe is a group of people each doing what makes them come alive, all that good stuff.</p>
<p>This is so cool. Too bad we&#8217;re on different ends of the continent. But I suppose that could be seen as a gift as well. We need this everywhere.<br />
- Devin</p>
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		<title>By: K</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-52</guid>
		<description>now this was a lovely post. 

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>now this was a lovely post. </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: PennyScout</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>PennyScout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.urbanscout.org/money-vs-rewilding/#comment-51</guid>
		<description>I was listening to the advanced bird language tapes yesterday and this thing about money reminded me of when he talks about how listening to the birds would help you to be a great hunter and in hunter gatherer societies the way to earn prestige was to be a great hunter so you could support your family and the widows and elderly and others in need. We don't do that with money. We don't really share it with the less fortunate in our society, except for a dime or two, or for a billionaire the equivalent of a dime to them. It is my impression that indians took care of less fortunate families in even if it was because their male provider was just downright lazy. They didn't try to punish the laziness out of him by letting him and his family go hungry while telling him to "get a job" as we do in the civilized world.

p.s. i know you don't know how to work this shit and neither do i since your blog is the first that has ever interested me, but it would be awesome if somehow i could sign in and it would highlight the posts and especially the commentsts that i haven't read. Right now i'm checking them all for new comments and that takes awhile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was listening to the advanced bird language tapes yesterday and this thing about money reminded me of when he talks about how listening to the birds would help you to be a great hunter and in hunter gatherer societies the way to earn prestige was to be a great hunter so you could support your family and the widows and elderly and others in need. We don&#8217;t do that with money. We don&#8217;t really share it with the less fortunate in our society, except for a dime or two, or for a billionaire the equivalent of a dime to them. It is my impression that indians took care of less fortunate families in even if it was because their male provider was just downright lazy. They didn&#8217;t try to punish the laziness out of him by letting him and his family go hungry while telling him to &#8220;get a job&#8221; as we do in the civilized world.</p>
<p>p.s. i know you don&#8217;t know how to work this shit and neither do i since your blog is the first that has ever interested me, but it would be awesome if somehow i could sign in and it would highlight the posts and especially the commentsts that i haven&#8217;t read. Right now i&#8217;m checking them all for new comments and that takes awhile.</p>
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