You heard right folks, the next installment of Urban Scout’s anti-vegan brigade! Inspiration for the following tirade came from, once again, the Willamette Week in which they interviewed an animal rights activist in the “hot seat.”
Let’s get one thing straight. I support animal rights activism. Of course, the only reason we need animal rights activism involves civilizations horrific treatment of animals, both captive and wild. I hate animal testing and factory farms. I would like to see industrial civilization, which creates the domestication and torture of animals, collapse very soon.
I also hate mono-cropping, the domestication of plants, soil depletion, desertification… and everything else caused by agriculture economies. I do not put the mis-treatment of animals above mis-treatment of the entire landbase. Since the mis-treatment of the entire landbase in agricultural economies does more damage than simple factory farms (as outlined in my other “anti-vegan” writing; Civilization Found in Vegan Ethics, Hey Vegans; Plants Have Feelings Too, and Veganism Vs. Rewilding) I don’t focus on animals rights activism (though I support those who do as long as they support what I do too). I focus on the cause, not the effects. The cause stems from the foundations of civilization (as seen in my other writing). Any attempt to attack the effect without attacking civilization will not bear much fruit.
Blah blah. I love listening to myself type. Anyway, my friend showed me an article in one of the local papers where they interview a vegan “animal rights activist.” I couldn’t believe it when I read the following line of questioning…
While hunting may seem cruel in America, because it’s not necessary for most people’s survival, what happens in a culture where people must hunt to survive? Do animals still have the same rights?
Animals are not on this planet for us to use. There needs to be respect for the fact that they are individual living beings. If people can live without using animals, they should do that.
What about plants? Plants live as individual beings. Do they not deserve respect? How about having respect for the land and not clear-cutting the amazon to grow your soy or corn mono-crop? People can only live without eating animals within the agricultural economy. If people can live without plants or animals or water or air, they should to that too. That sounds like a complete lack of understanding how whole systems work together. If that sounds dis associative enough…than she drops this bomb:
What about the Inuit in Canada, who help support themselves by hunting?
I’m not an expert on the Inuit. But if they can mine and sell gas, diamonds, gold and heavy metals, they can certainly ship in some tofu. If everyone had as much respect for animals and the sacrifice they make for humans as [they do] for native cultures, this world would be a much better place.
“Ship in some tofu?” Okay, okay… I may not have some fancy-shmancy “environmental studies” degree like her, but I can smell bullshit. Her comment sounds completely racist. Racist because she puts the blame of animal torture on native peoples and their way of life. Let me translate her comment, “If they can have their entire culture destroyed by civilization, than have their landbase destroyed at the hands of the gas, diamonds, gold and heavy metals corporations, they can certainly eat something that has nothing to do with their lives whatsoever.”
Native cultures don’t “ship” in food because they live as natives. Meaning; from their own landbase. Native hunting and gathering cultures did not create factory farming, animal testing or domesticated animals. These cultures do not “use” animals, they eat them. After living sustainably in this way for thousands of years and than having their culture and land destroyed by civilization in a few hundred, now here comes a vegan missionary from civilization telling them they need to stop living from their own landbase and eat tofu made from soy, grown by civilizationists in the deforested region of the amazon basin, no doubt. All in the name of animal rights? Someone needs to get their priorities straight! Seriously.
Her comment shows no understanding of indigenous philosophy nor compassion for their broken and destroyed cultures. That she would even suggest that they import food shows she has no understanding of how their cultures interact with the planet in a sustainable and ethical way. That she would say that indigenous cultures receive more respect than animals sounds just as insane. If you respected indigenous cultures, you would not insult them by telling them they should live the way you do. That sounds like cultural genocide, something they have experienced the world over. Hardly respectful. I urge people to call out this racist nonesense and leave a comment on the “Willy Week” site.
Vegetarian and vegan mythology has no real connection to place, nor an understanding of ecological principles of food subsistence and sustainability. I’ve got another great example of this…
The day before I brought Derrick Jensen to Portland last, I get a phone call. It goes something like this:
Lady: Hi. I’m calling because I have some questions about the Derrick Jensen talk tomorrow.
Scout: Okay, great. How can I help you?
L: Well, I’m trying to decide if I should go or not… I’m just curious if Derrick Jensen is a or has ever mentioned veganism?
S: …No. I know he is not a vegan and I think he has written a little bit about that… I’m sure he’d answer your questions about it if you came tomorrow.
L:…Well, I don’t know if I would have time to say everything now… You see, Global Warming is a serious problem and it’s caused by factory farming. If everyone turned to a vegan diet, we would…
S: I’m sorry, I disagree with you. But I am not Derrick. If you’d like to ask him about it, I’m sure you can do that tomorrow at the talk.
L: Well, I’m curious what part you disagree with?
(I hesitate… But I feel a little vivacious so I bite.)
S: Well, Civilization is fueled through grain-based diets. I am totally against factory farming, but civilization is only possible through the domestication of grains, not animals. If everyone turned vegan it would only fuel more desertification and population growth, which means more consumption of everything.
L: But don’t you think that….
(the conversation goes on for about 20 minutes. I tell her that I support animal rights but have nothing against killing animals, she doesn’t seem to think that there is either… but keeps arguing that somehow veganism will help, even though I’ve described how it can’t. Than she says something like meat is poison and I say…)
S: Humans have been eating meat for 3 million years.
L: Well, they’ve also had slavery for three million years so just beca-
S: That’s not true. Slavery only exists within civilizations.
L: Well, just because something has been happening for a long time doesn’t mean we shouldn’t change it. Women weren’t aloud to vote at one time, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t just because they haven’t.
S: That has nothing to do with what were talking about. Were talking about evolution. Humans have evolved to eat meat.
L: Than I guess you have never read the blah blah blah about how meat does blah blah blah and is poison!
S: Actually, I have read a bunch of that, and it doesn’t make any difference because humans have eaten meat for 3 million years and lived in a sustainable, ethical way. If it were poison, I wouldn’t be talking to you right now because we wouldn’t have lived for 3 million years eating it.
L: Well humans have also lived as vegans for 3 million years too!
S: …No, they haven’t.
L: Yes they have! In a parallel dimension.
S: … … … This conversation… is over.
(Click)
I seriously couldn’t make this shit up. Even if a vegan dimension exists (giving her the benefit of the doubt here)… what the fuck does that have to do with this dimension!? I don’t think she came to the Q and A. I made up my own little Q and A for your entertainment. It goes like this:
Question: What do you get when you remove people from their connection to their landbase, make them practice agricultural subsistence, put them in a hierarchical social structure and wait 10,000 years?
Answer: Racist Vegans From Dimension X
I support animal rights activism, only so far as it recognizes the rest of the world too. I support Animist Rights Activism. I think all things, human and other-than-humans deserve to have lives lived of their own without torture and exploitation; animals, plants, insects, rocks, water, wind, stars, etc. Of course, activism only becomes necessary when you have a culture that does not recognize those other-than-humans as needing respect. Animist hunter-gatherer cultures do respect these things. If these vegans stopped pushing civilization onto indigenous people and actually started learning from them, I wouldn’t need to write shit about it. So really the best animist rights activism would involve just bringing down civilization right now.
The only thing that causes a population increase is eggs being fertilized and babies being born. The presence of food doesn’t fuel population growth, there is a correlation but it is not the cause. From what I read, educating women is the best and most efficient way to slow population growth rates.
Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am.
Thanks
Scout said: I tell her that I support animal rights but have nothing against killing animals.
So, would you say that you support the rights of the animal known as H. sapiens but have nothing against killing H. sapiens?
You remind of the people I hear say how much they love animals while they eat a factory-farmed piece of “meat” known as a Whopper.
Using your logic about population growth and the amount of grain available it would seem the smartest thing to do is to eat as much meat as possible so that there will be no excess grain.
Hey gqsmoothie.
To say “The only thing that causes a population increase is eggs being fertilized and babies being born” is rather like saying, “the only thing that causes car crashes is two cars colliding with themselves and getting smashed up.”
There are thousands of factors in babies being born. Cultural and biological factors. To say “The only thing that causes a population increase is eggs being fertilized and babies being born” ignores these factors that play into why the egg is being fertilized. If your culture believes that their god has told them to “be fruitful and multiply” for example, than that will give rise to many more eggs being fertilized.
Cultural factors aside, most fundamentally humans live as animals subject to biological population growth dynamics like any other animal. Our population has grown exponentially for the last 10,000 years, with the advent of agricultural production. I have a hard time believing that education will change our biology and the cultural momentum of 10,000 years. Not to mention the million other complications that agriculture causes. The only thing that will stop us from killing ourselves and taking the world with us is a complete transformation of subsistence strategies that do not rely on primary succession plants like soy, corn, wheat and rice.
A great DVD on population dynamics and food production can be found here;
https://www.newtribalventures.com/ntv/market/category.cfm?Category=12#83
Scout,
Thanks for replying (that was quick). I’ll check out that DVD.
FWIW: I am a vegan and I pretty much agree with your rants on veganism. I realize that humans evolved to eat meat, but until I can (or do) get meat from the non-industrial system I will be vegan. Most vegans don’t get this but veganism isn’t natural, I don’t think there were any vegans till like the 1950s and people having been eating meat since before we were H. sapiens.
“So, would you say that you support the rights of the animal known as H. sapiens but have nothing against killing H. sapiens?”
Yes. I would say that too. If someone was going to kill my mom, I would do what I could to stop them and if that meant killing them, than so be it. I do not subscribe to pacifist dogma.
“You remind of the people I hear say how much they love animals while they eat a factory-farmed piece of “meat” known as a Whopper.”
You remind me of the kind of person who says how much they love animals while they do nothing to stop civilization from killing the entire planet.
“Using your logic about population growth and the amount of grain available it would seem the smartest thing to do is to eat as much meat as possible so that there will be no excess grain.”
As I have said elsewhere, the smartest thing I would think to do would be to abandon the food systems of civilization altogether and start taking care of the land again. Short of that, buying local meat and produce works in the interm between total collapse and the present moment.
“Thanks for replying (that was quick). I’ll check out that DVD.”
Yeah, rainy day today and I feel all shivery like I have a fever maybe. Bleh!
“but until I can (or do) get meat from the non-industrial system I will be vegan. ”
I understand exactly how you feel. I felt that way for a long time until I decided to only buy from locally produced food and my health as a vegan felt pretty bad too. And I had that crazy experience with plants where I just feel as badly for them as I do for animals. I buy mostly free range meats and no I don’t eat whoppers.
Hey Scout:
I just wanted to apologize about my comment saying “You remind me of people who say they love animals while they eat a Whopper.”
I’m sure you realize the fact that animals are meat. It’s just that so many (nearly all) people see no connection between the two. But considering that you made a hat from a raccoon (or some animal) I am sure you see the connection between animals and food/material objects like leather, etc.
Sincerely,
Gabe
No problem Gabe. I certainly see that meat comes from animals. I didn’t always. When I was about 5 I remember refusing to eat burgers after I found out they came from Cows.
Now I believe that plants and animals (and sticks and stones and wind and water, etc) all have feelings and do not like to feel exploited. When I take those things and turn them for my own uses whether to eat or make tools I recognize that means I must give back to their communities in some way too, and I also feel reverant and thankful towards their communities as I would towards a human friend who gave me something.
Check out my blog “Meeting My Meat”
http://www.urbanscout.org/meeting-my-meat/
and “How I Painlessly Lost My Roadkill Deer Virginity.”
http://www.urbanscout.org/how-i-painlessly-lost-my-road-kill-deer-virginity/
I love how you really hit the nail on the head with these rants, Scout.
As an ex-vegan who now opposes civilization, factory farming and agriculture, and as someone who eats hunted and scavenged meat in efforts to rewild and live locally: right on.
Dear Scout,
I agree with WildeRix.
Great line if I may quote you ““Ship in some tofu?” Okay, okay… I may not have some fancy-shmancy “environmental studies” degree like her, but I can smell bullshit.”
Yea!
In another Dimension I might have started a rant about how evil you are for eating animals, in this alternate dimension I would probably have learned to see death seperate from life and i talk on and on about how “nice” animals are.
Luckily we arent in a another dimension and i appreciate what you’re saying here man. Keep up the good work!
That’s really hilarious.
Sounds like she was calling to pick a fight anyway.
Scout,
It always helps me to remember that energy is never created or destroyed, only gifted from one to another. Take care.
Good piece. I can’t tell you how many times I feel like I am banging my head aginst a wall speaking to some of these people. They’re not in touch with reality. It is totally obvious that vivisection and factory farming etc. are appalling and need to stop along with the rest….but they don’t seem to get (like you said) the innate respect and understanding indigenous people’s had, whilst still eating animals as part of their diet. They just don’t get it. Fucking shipping in tofu. Jesus.
Thankyou for your writings, these conflicts get really draining.
I lost my faith in veganism as soon as I saw the grey areas and became anti-civ. I still haven’t got my food sources down, but hopefully that’ll come in time.
Thanks for the piece!
I was vegan for about 2 and a half years and until I started researching indigenous cultures, and finally realized how shit a grain based diet was making me feel (although it made me feel better than the “standard western diet” I was on before) and how bad it is for the planet AND animals (Think how many animals are killed when when a forest is clear cut for grain production). I also noticed what I suppose you could call a fascist mentality among certain animal rights people I met who seem to hate everyone who isn’t vegan or veggie.
Ha! You do use words like vivacious.
Sadly ‘loves animals’ is often a cover story for ‘hates people’.
SBW
Dear UrbSco -
If you could use your computer to see into my parallel universe, you would observe me giving you a STANDING OVATION for your well-reasoned response to the vegan. Especially, I like the defense of indigenous cultures.
Sincerely,
Shusli
Um, sorry Scout, but I disagree with you. Here is some advice from a QUALIFIED naturopath here in Australia - I hope it can help you to see the error of your ways (I know you don’t mean it though!) I was reading the brochure this morning. She says that animal meat is bad for you because it contains toxins and fat. As most people know, fat is definitely NOT good for us! Since Americans, and maybe Australians, switched from eating fresh farm veges and potatoes to eating more meat, peoples’ health has gotten worse - heart attacks and cholesterol, etc. I’m sure you know. Also, the naturopath says that instead of eating meat, we should be drinking Goji berry juice - it’s the most beneficial juice on Planet Earth, and eating plenty of vegetables, all raw if possible, because that’s the way mother nature intended. But you have to make sure the vegetables are certified organic from a LOCAL grower - it’s sustainable that way. One thing you must also make sure of is to eat fresh WHOLE grains only - white flour and bread is NOT good for you. Mother Nature wanted us to eat the WHOLE grain. Do you see birds picking the grain apart??!! If only we all got together and stuck to a vegetarian diet with no animal meat, milk, fat, fish, chicken, the we would realise our true capacity for wisdom and the animals would respect us much more for it. There is no need for it. It is time to stop unhealthy disease that has been with us since we became hunter gatherers, return to our previous diet, and let animals live. Albert Einstein (the smartest man on earth) quoted: “Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”
concetto -
May I take the liberty of referring you to a study done by Kari Norgarrd, Ph.D. on the adverse effects of deviating from a millenia-old diet of the Karuk First Nation (of which I am an enrolled member) here in the U.S.? Try to read it with neutral, not pro-vegan, lenses and you will learn that a diet that includes high intake of MEAT, in this case salmon, is actually far healthier for these folks than other diets. Just look it up online.
Shusli
Scout…Bravo! I ended my vegan diet earlier this year (after 16 years) after coming to grips with civilization and a grain based diet. I swear, I should copy down your anti-vegan rants and read them off to my old vegan friends when they get too big for their britches.
concetto….I don’t know what to say to you, except that your comment was hilarious at best, and also very sad…for you. Have a great day.
Concetto,
When I first read your letter I thought that you were being ironically condescending and ignorant. But you didn’t end with a smiley face that says, “Just Kidding,” So I’ll assume you meant everything you said…
Obviously you have read a piece of vegan propaganda which assists in explaining why people blindly accept Veganism. A simple study of archaeological bone sites show that health problems such as the ones you speak of heart problems and cholesterol come from the introduction of grain based diets. Your comments about fat being “bad” are so out-dated it’s quite unbelievable. Here are some links on the decline of health with the introduction of grains:
http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-21-civilization-makes-us-sick/
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/native_americans.html
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/published_research/
Also many books on the subject:
The Paleo Diet
The Body Ecology Diet
Nourishing Traditions
Neanderthin
One of my best friends is a qualified naturopath. He would laugh at what that one said; the point being that it was merely propaganda. Any expert can say anything they want off hand, that doesn’t make it “true.” What makes it the most accurate representation of reality is when we look at the evidence. Your naturopath is lying or ignorant to the mounting evidence contrary to his knowledge. Thankfully, my naturopath is not!
Secondly, the whole growing Goji berries thing is ridiculous and again shows how you vegans have no sense of place and bioregion. You can just import a foreign species and call it sustainable because you’re not pouring pesticides on it. There are berries here in my bio-region that are just as healthy if not more than Goji berries. How about I restore my bio-region rather than importing plants that have no place or history here. How about learning about your own bioregion before importing and growing foreign plants.
Not everyone thinks Einstein was that smart, I sure don’t. All you have done here is regurgitated bullshit vegan propaganda that has been debunked a million times over. You are the reason I keep writing these anti-vegan blogs.
Sorry Scout, I forgot to put the smiley face at the end of my comment. Yes, I was being sarcastic. The brochure was real though, and it was full of all that bullshit I said, and more - I was shown it by a friend of mine yesterday morning. The naturopath who took the liberty of writing it has charged my friend’s son hundreds of dollars in the last couple of months (plus hundreds of dollars in herbs, of course - many of them proprietory or big-branded and imported from overseas, no doubt from slave-labour areas). I gotta admit, it pissed me off a bit when I read it, and even more when my friend was quoting it as if it was evidence against some of the Weston Price stuff I have given to him to read in the past… The brochure contains so many claims and assertations (with no references, of course - only CAPITAL LETTERS to make it look CONVINCING and TRUTHFUL). She even states very explicitly that a vegetarian diet will provide you with enough much-needed vitamin B12, which to my understanding can only be obtained through animal products…
So, sorry about that - I just get a kick out of reading your responses - yours was almost word-for-word the same as mine to my friend.
FWIW, I also went through a stage years ago when I decided to become a vegan as a protest against industrial farming, until I realized that I felt perpetually hungry and exhausted. As for now, I don’t eat much actual meat any more. That is, all the “healthy” types of meat - prime-cut steaks with the fat carefully trimmed off, skinless chicken breasts and lean lamb (which is a great oxymoron, anyway). I only go for the offcuts - bits of meat that fall off the (usually free) bones when I cook them for broth and the fat that’s cut off the prime bits that other people pay a fortune for (which I end up getting for nothing but a strange look from the butcher). As well as being nutritionally superior, its way cheaper.
Another thing that I haven’t heard any people mention… even if you were to pass a free one to these vegans and pretend that plants don’t have feelings, how about the animals ON the plants that vegans eat? You know, microscopic animals. Especially in regards to fermented foods. Although if militant vegans can argue that plants don’t have feelings, then why would they give a shit about stuff you can’t see?
Take care. Love reading your blog.
Hahahahahaha!!! Concetto, my hat goes off to you for sounding too real! Nice work my friend. Glad to know that it was a joke… I mean, that it’s a real brochure but that you were telling me in an ironic vegan kind of way. Haha. I get really worked up with this shit sometimes. I’m rolling on the floor right now. Glad to hear about the meat disjecta that you eat, sounds like it works well! I eat bacon ends often, mostly cause they’re so fucking cheap.
Anyway, thanks for putting a smile on my face today!
Scout
“ironic vegan kind of way” — Hahaha! Ahh, all this humor is simply infectious!
I haven’t read all the comments as I have to get my ass to work soon.
A common pattern within civilization is one has to think themselves as above other human beings and other life forms. Ones behavior in support of said civilization might be called into question and civilization may suffer as a consequence should folks actually see themselves as a part of all other life on this planet instead of being separate and thus, SUPERIOR, to other life forms and in the case of humans who create civilization…other humans. It makes it much easier to do in-human things to your fellow human beings if you do not see them as humans. As I read “Culloden,” it is clear the Brits and the Lowland Scots thought themselves much higher than the Highlanders and therefore enacted the Highland Clearances, slaughtering and torturing many a Highlander in the name of a FUCKING KING! (Some things never change).
Vegans seem to have the same mindset that brought us civilization. Vegans are above all other human beings and all other life forms. Vegans are the kings and queens of the world by simple dietary choice. They are often missionaries, and missionaries have done more to SLAUGHTER native cultures than ever to help them as it is truly their mission to further CIVILIZATION! I have witnessed many a vegan use verbal and emotional abuses to get their messages across. They seem to consider these forms of violence to be non-violence, like they seem to consider their dietary choice as making them superior to all others who do not have the same dietary choice. So, like civilized society, they use forms of FORCE to get their message across and COLONIZE the minds of others. …just like civilization.
Racism is a part of civilized society. Without it, the Brits might have carried some form of humanity and compassion to the Highlander Scots, the Indians of America, the Indians of India, Africans, Arabs, and all over the world. But that would not have furthered civilization and privilege. Calling other races their “lessers” would indeed help further that privilege and civilization. And the same pattern is seen amongst vegans. Other races, especially meat eating races, especially indigenous races, are lessers because they eat meat and have done so for millions of years. Racism…it’s what’s for dinner.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it repeatedly throughout the rest of my fucking life: “Being vegan doesn’t make you holy, it only makes you vegan.”
And to paraphrase Monty Python and the Holy Grail, this one goes out to you, vegans: “Who lobbed a scimitar in your general direction and made you our king or queen?”
Scout’s argument: veganism leads to population growth because grain is freed up which causes more people to be born.
I think this forgets about the fundamental force that drives world economies: the Law of Supply and Demand. If people go vegan, yes, there will be grain freed up. But since there will be less demand for grain from vegans than there would be from meat eaters there will be less grain grown.
Scout’s other point: vegans don’t eat from their region.
True, but neither do most omnivores. This misses the point that vegans, and omnivores, could eat food from local sources. This slighly depends on where the person is. The person in Scout’s piece that calls for shipping tofu to the Inuit makes no sense. But the climate where many people live could support the crops necessary to nourish a person. I live in central NC and I could get all of my food from farms within a 150-200 mile radius, with most of the food able to be grown within 20 feet of my backyard.
Scout’s other point: the introduction of grain-based diets led to higher rates of disease.
This might be right, I’m not doubting him, I just haven’t read anything (yet) on this subject.
Hey Smoothie,
Population growth dynamics do not follow supply and demand. That’s an economic, social structure. When there is a large supply of food for a particular species, its population will grow to match that. In our case, we continue to make more food than we need and so continue to grow. This is what Daniel Quinn has coined the “food race.” More grain means more people.
You cannot live as a vegan in a bioregional, non agricultural economy. Even if you could, why would it matter? If you can live in equilibrium and not see animals as higher life forms than plants, or could craft a functioning ecosystem, you wouldn’t need to differentiate. It makes no sense. You cannot grow protein and minerals found in animals, that humans need.